Josh Melnick (F) commit - Youngstown (USHL)

 
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Bonk
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:34 pm    Post subject: Josh Melnick (F) commit - Youngstown (USHL) Reply with quote

From the twitter:

Josh Melnick @Tha_MelMan 1h 1 hour ago
Very excited to announce my commitment to Miami University #Brotherhood


60 GP, 14-48-62 with Youngstown this year. Probably a center with that scoring line, something Miami dearly needs.

Welcome aboard!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Previously a Princeton commit...decommitted via Twitter and had his coach call him out (and Miami) for it.

Yikes.

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/2015/3/31/8323385/princeton-head-coach-ron-fogarty-calls-out-player-decommitting-on
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonk wrote:
Previously a Princeton commit...decommitted via Twitter and had his coach call him out (and Miami) for it.

Yikes.

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/2015/3/31/8323385/princeton-head-coach-ron-fogarty-calls-out-player-decommitting-on


looks like he's a linemate of Miami commit kiefer sherwood. interesting Princeton decommit though in part since he was from NJ and went to nearby Delbarton, etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonk wrote:
Previously a Princeton commit...decommitted via Twitter and had his coach call him out (and Miami) for it.

Yikes.

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/2015/3/31/8323385/princeton-head-coach-ron-fogarty-calls-out-player-decommitting-on


It sucks when a kid decommits and goes to another school. I see valid arguments from both the players and coaches side. I think the coach loses a lot more when he goes to twitter, facebook, or whatever to blast the kid, doesn't look good in my eyes to do so. Move on and let it go
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MiamiSkins wrote:
Bonk wrote:
Previously a Princeton commit...decommitted via Twitter and had his coach call him out (and Miami) for it.

Yikes.

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/2015/3/31/8323385/princeton-head-coach-ron-fogarty-calls-out-player-decommitting-on


It sucks when a kid decommits and goes to another school. I see valid arguments from both the players and coaches side. I think the coach loses a lot more when he goes to twitter, facebook, or whatever to blast the kid, doesn't look good in my eyes to do so. Move on and let it go


they are so young. I don't have a problem when they decommit, but the way it was handled by the player was not good (and the way handled by the Princeton coach on Twitter (though since deleted) was even worse, in my opinion. he's a lot older - should have ben able to handle more maturely and professionally than taking a shot at both the student AND Rico on Twitter.


Last edited by laxmom on Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:54 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the last guy who got heat by his old team for decommitting then coming to Oxford. The Czar worked out pretty well for us.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcfarljd wrote:
I remember the last guy who got heat by his old team for decommitting then coming to Oxford. The Czar worked out pretty well for us.


michigan state? forgot that.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Poorly handled by the Princeton coach - he has nothing to gain by blowing up on twitter. Poorly handled by the commit - if he is having second thoughts he should have decommitted and re-opened recruitment. It makes you think he was hanging onto a safety offer while shopping for something better...

That said, not a good look for Rico and Miami, if true. I know this board would lose its mind if it happened the other way around (Narduzzi)...

This is not a case of a youthful commit (though I have no idea when Melnick originally committed to Princeton) - Fogarty's anger stems from the fact that Melnick would have been signed to an NLI at any school outside of an IVY last fall. Many coaches have stated to doing away with the gentlemen's agreement on verbals (which I think is a poor decision and I'd hate to see Rico as one of them) - but its a bit of a different situation here. A verbal yes, but not really a verbal from a timing standpoint...

This is a kid who committed to Princeton along with a bunch of HS/Prep teammates, is from the area and, if you follow the timeline, was pumped about, and all in on, attending Princeton.

Late last week word came out that he was going to Harvard (no idea if that was legit or speculation) - so I'm hoping THEY were the pursuing coaching staff and for whatever reason THEY/Melnick decided he would NOT attend Harvard as a result of how that commitment came about. Obviously there was no going back at Princeton, so he falls in Miami's lap along with his current line-mate...

I don't know what happened, but that's what I hope happened. Otherwise, i'd be disappointed...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nothing is binding until an NLI is signed or the kid shows up on campus.

Whether Miami is the poacher or the poached, that's recruiting.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elpalito wrote:
Nothing is binding until an NLI is signed or the kid shows up on campus.

Whether Miami is the poacher or the poached, that's recruiting.


And schools that can't sign NLI's are just SOL? Buffet tables for the schools that do?

I recruit at the DI level for a living - I will NEVER poach a player and thankfully most other coaches feel the same way. There are always some coaches who do the wrong 'things' in many areas - I will NEVER justify doing the wrong thing simply because others do.

Your above statement is just a throw away line that people use to justify recruiters' behavior...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanRedhawk wrote:
Poorly handled by the Princeton coach - he has nothing to gain by blowing up on twitter. Poorly handled by the commit - if he is having second thoughts he should have decommitted and re-opened recruitment. It makes you think he was hanging onto a safety offer while shopping for something better...

That said, not a good look for Rico and Miami, if true. I know this board would lose its mind if it happened the other way around (Narduzzi)...

This is not a case of a youthful commit (though I have no idea when Melnick originally committed to Princeton) - Fogarty's anger stems from the fact that Melnick would have been signed to an NLI at any school outside of an IVY last fall. Many coaches have stated to doing away with the gentlemen's agreement on verbals (which I think is a poor decision and I'd hate to see Rico as one of them) - but its a bit of a different situation here. A verbal yes, but not really a verbal from a timing standpoint...

This is a kid who committed to Princeton along with a bunch of HS/Prep teammates, is from the area and, if you follow the timeline, was pumped about, and all in on, attending Princeton.

Late last week word came out that he was going to Harvard (no idea if that was legit or speculation) - so I'm hoping THEY were the pursuing coaching staff and for whatever reason THEY/Melnick decided he would NOT attend Harvard as a result of how that commitment came about. Obviously there was no going back at Princeton, so he falls in Miami's lap along with his current line-mate...

I don't know what happened, but that's what I hope happened. Otherwise, i'd be disappointed...


i agree to a certain extent. I think the coach really blew it with his response and the recruit poorly handled how he communicated his decision, though I believe he had every right to do so. He committed early coming out of nearby Delbarton and being from NJ. i am wondering if he saw his stock rise while at Youngstown, played with some of the other Miami commits there and then wanted to go to a better hockey program. who could blame him, but it should have been communicated differently. It's interesting timing as most Ivy athletes go through early decision the fall before they are to enter, so I am guessing he did not do that this past December.

I faintly recall that when Marc Hagel came to Miami for the one year, after having graduated from Princeton, that the Princeton coaches had encouraged him to come to the 'Hawks (over other programs). A different situation from a new recruit, but it suggested to me there were good relations between the coaching staffs. I hope the Princeton coaches were referring to the Harvard coaching staff as you suggest as a possibility.

Bonk - he was a '15 commit for Princeton, but will he come in '15 or '16 for Miami?


Last edited by laxmom on Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laxmom:

Of course, decommits happen all the time in every sport - but I think the player has the obligation to decommit when they are having second thoughts. If we are to believe Fogarty, Melnick was recruited for the past five months (all while being committed). If he is taking those calls for that long, he is in the wrong in staying committed to Princeton. Its just like staying in a relationship, while you're out sleeping around looking for a new relationship...

Now, it sounds like Fogarty knew what was going on the entire time - so he could have easily exercised his right to move on from Melnick but he didn't and whether it was loyalty to a verbal or wanting the talent it cost him. As a coach, no way you can vent about recruiting on twitter. That is probably the worst decision he possibly could have made...

Both are wrong - but that doesn't exonerate the 'other' school. Which I still hope was not Miami. Anyone who has followed the situation would notice that Fogarty's tweet was followed by almost two weeks of radio silence on where Melnick was ending up, so I'm hopeful that things were cleared up and he landed at Miami after the fact (naive as that may be)...

I still think this dishonoring of a 'gentlemen's agreement' is simply an unethical way to recruit. We can rationalize verbals all we want - but that is the system in place. Don't commit to a prospect and don't commit to a school if you're not ready to honor that commitment. As a prospect, don't decommit unless you have a legitimate reason and do it immediately. And as a coach - don't pull a commit unless the prospect breaks a very legitimate legal or team law/rule (I have no patience for coaches who drop recruits or recruit over kids they've committed to). It shouldn't be too difficult.

BUT, I also think that IVY's are at a huge disadvantage - and prey to unethical coaching staffs. The can get themselves accepted to the school - and I'm assuming Melnick had been accepted AND paid his deposit and/or signed any financial aid agreement as that is the ONLY way Fogarty could have mentioned his name in the tweet without committing and NCAA violation. BUT, that is 'non-binding' and not an NLI. So according to el palito its fair game, no harm done (the idea that he'd say the same thing if it happened to Miami... Rolling Eyes )

There was a player in my sport, committed to Princeton, that was plucked by a top-10 power a month before school started. That player eventually pitched in the sports NC tournament and was lauded by ESPN for trading up. The school she landed at was lauded for being creative. It was despicable...

I don't work at an IVY school, fyi - but its NOT right to target those kids late, this close to enrollment simply because the kid you might want from UMD has signed and they haven't...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DanRedhawk wrote:
Laxmom:

Of course, decommits happen all the time in every sport - but I think the player has the obligation to decommit when they are having second thoughts. If we are to believe Fogarty, Melnick was recruited for the past five months (all while being committed). If he is taking those calls for that long, he is in the wrong in staying committed to Princeton. Its just like staying in a relationship, while you're out sleeping around looking for a new relationship...

Now, it sounds like Fogarty knew what was going on the entire time - so he could have easily exercised his right to move on from Melnick but he didn't and whether it was loyalty to a verbal or wanting the talent it cost him. As a coach, no way you can vent about recruiting on twitter. That is probably the worst decision he possibly could have made...

Both are wrong - but that doesn't exonerate the 'other' school. Which I still hope was not Miami. Anyone who has followed the situation would notice that Fogarty's tweet was followed by almost two weeks of radio silence on where Melnick was ending up, so I'm hopeful that things were cleared up and he landed at Miami after the fact (naive as that may be)...

I still think this dishonoring of a 'gentlemen's agreement' is simply an unethical way to recruit. We can rationalize verbals all we want - but that is the system in place. Don't commit to a prospect and don't commit to a school if you're not ready to honor that commitment. As a prospect, don't decommit unless you have a legitimate reason and do it immediately. And as a coach - don't pull a commit unless the prospect breaks a very legitimate legal or team law/rule (I have no patience for coaches who drop recruits or recruit over kids they've committed to). It shouldn't be too difficult.

BUT, I also think that IVY's are at a huge disadvantage - and prey to unethical coaching staffs. The can get themselves accepted to the school - and I'm assuming Melnick had been accepted AND paid his deposit and/or signed any financial aid agreement as that is the ONLY way Fogarty could have mentioned his name in the tweet without committing and NCAA violation. BUT, that is 'non-binding' and not an NLI. So according to el palito its fair game, no harm done (the idea that he'd say the same thing if it happened to Miami... Rolling Eyes )

There was a player in my sport, committed to Princeton, that was plucked by a top-10 power a month before school started. That player eventually pitched in the sports NC tournament and was lauded by ESPN for trading up. The school she landed at was lauded for being creative. It was despicable...

I don't work at an IVY school, fyi - but its NOT right to target those kids late, this close to enrollment simply because the kid you might want from UMD has signed and they haven't...


DanRedHawk

I get the recruiting cycle and process. I know you are apparently in college athletics, but I went through this with my older 3 kids, one of whom was an Ivy commit (and none of whom changed their initial commits). Two of my kids also now coach at competitive program high schools where many of their kids are college commits (my oldest son has 23 + D1 commits on his roster), so I see this with the college coaches pursuing their athletes. Kids are being pressured to commit and committing early, and it's not surprising they are changing (wholly apart from the fact some coaches are letting kids go who they had originally offered a scholly to - before NLI). I wouldn't encourage it, but i think it is reality. I'm more concerned about how the pursuing is being done form the coach perspective and how it is communicated by the recruits (broadcasting on Twitter is a poor choice).

As to what happened between the coaches supposedly pursuing Melnick, whether Harvard, Miami or another college), we don't know what really happened. What is clear is that he was having second thoughts after committing early to Princeton and he apparently allowed the contact to continue. When one of my sons committed to a D1 entity, he made clear to other coaches who continued to recruit him that he was firm and they should not continue communication. After a bit, they did not.

I share your concern about the "other school"'s actions and surely hope it was not Miami.

As to what is binding, the large majority of Ivy athletes do Early Decision (as that ED decision IS their "scholarship" benny as most wouldn't otherwise get into that college), which IS binding, except under certain circumstances such as an insufficient financial award (the burden on the student/famiiy to demonstrate that). Deposits aren't due until May 1, however. I am guessing that the FA was not an issue since he went to Delbarton (but could have been on partial scholly) and was considering Harvard, but who knows. Maybe he hadn't applied in December ED at Princeton or at all, having had second thoughts about his decision.

So, I don't disagree with you about the post-commitment pursuing colleges, depending on how they are doing it. But, I believe the athletes have a right to rethink their decisions, but would hope they are up-front with the committed college. We really don't know what went on with Princeton, the pursuing colleges (Harvard, Miami or other) and the student and his family - other than what has been poorly posted on Twitter by the Princeton coach and the student athlete, and on forums like USCHO.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never meant to argue that early recruiting was not a problem for some sports - it certainly is an issue in hockey and it is an EVEN worse issue in the sport that I coach, I can promise you that...

However, as someone who really has no problem with early commitments - as long as they are honored by the coaching staff - I don't look at early commitments as any sort of excuse towards the behavior exhibited on the recruiting trail these days.

I would 100% agree with you that NCAA coaches need to take a long, hard ethical look in the mirror and I believe I will almost always support a prospects right to decommit prior to signing an NLI - especially if they verbal as an 8th grader - as long as its done correctly. (although, that has never happened to me so we'll see, haha...).

It is not correct to communicate with other schools for five months prior to a decommitment - so assuming that's the case, and as a DI coach, I don't like what Melnick did (regardless of my relationship to Miami).

Early recruiting isn't necessarily the problem - the problem are the coaches in most cases, I agree. Especially those (and their are lots of them) who lament early recruiting and plead for ethical recruiting tactics and then walk right out the door and are the worst offenders. I've sat in a convention this winter listening to one coach pleading with colleagues to stop looking for loopholes to early recruiting - while EVERYONE in the room knew that that coach had begun their own 8th-grade and under club program (allowing direct coaching, observation and contact with the players the school was recruiting (early) - but players who were not considered NCAA prospects, making it legal).

To be honest, as a coach, I have no real issue with early recruiting on its own. However, we could certainly debate whether or not kids should be making decisions that young - and they probably shouldn't be. They certainly shouldn't be pressured, forced or 'tricked' into committing that early.

So, yes, I understand prospects decommiting. I always have and I will most often have NO problem with a decommitment IF it is handled the right way. I thought I had mentioned that above, but maybe not...

I take a bigger issue with the prospects and especially the coaches that manipulate the early recruiting process for their own gain.

Players will often accept the first offer (bird in the hand) while they are searching for something better. That's not ethical.

Coaches will constantly recruit other schools committed players. Coaches will drop committed players. Sometimes coaches will drop current commits because they stole another. Coaches will often try to commit one player, while they are searching for someone better and the initial player gets dropped. Coaches will recruit more players than they need and sort it out as players develop prior to signing NLI's. Coaches will often offer kids certain financial offers to gain commits and then send them NLI's with substantially reduced aid because they want to use it elsewhere. Coaches will pull scholarships from current players, for the sole purpose of giving it to a transfer or a decommit who just popped up on their radar. Its all unethical.

Trust me I've seen it all and coaches' are the biggest part of the problem, I get that...

I would never, however, rationalize that I'd get a pass for my bad behavior simply because others have done it. I've seen it all and I can promise you that I've seen it in a sport you'd never expect to be nearly as cutthroat as football or basketball or hockey, except its worse...

My point about the IVY league situation was this - the ED may be binding to the school, but it has no bearing on the NCAA and this is not the first time IVY recruits have been poached (its one of MANY situations). None of those kids have been held legally responsible for attending the IVY school - I highly doubt they're paying large sums of money to buy themselves out. I've certainly never heard of it in my sport.

I can state for a fact that IVY league recruits are targeted late because there is no NLI and nothing binds them, per the NCAA. I've seen it again and again from the outside.

My other point was just that Melnick had either been committed enough to submit an acceptance of aid (which is the only other way coaches can comment on players by name prior to enrollment) or Fogarty committed a violation mentioning his name in the text in addition to his poor taste...
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My approach as a coach -

1. Find the kids you like.
2. Observe them OFTEN.
3. Get to know them and see if the fit.
4. Offer them if they're who we want.
5. Trust my observation and experience and stick to my word.
6. Respect the other coaches, prospects, families and their decisions even when those decisions are not to attend my school.

Again, I really don't think its difficult to ethically AND successfully recruit.


** I've made my statement on the Miami/Melnick situation and I don't know what happened. The rest is only to be interpreted as me venting against the system and coaches in particular - not prospects.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MELNICK HEADED TO MIAMI - Junior Hockey News
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laxmom wrote:
MELNICK HEADED TO MIAMI - Junior Hockey News


So he is 19, will he be coming with the other two Youngstown guys next year?
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

laxmom wrote:
DanRedhawk wrote:
Poorly handled by the Princeton coach - he has nothing to gain by blowing up on twitter. Poorly handled by the commit - if he is having second thoughts he should have decommitted and re-opened recruitment. It makes you think he was hanging onto a safety offer while shopping for something better...

That said, not a good look for Rico and Miami, if true. I know this board would lose its mind if it happened the other way around (Narduzzi)...

This is not a case of a youthful commit (though I have no idea when Melnick originally committed to Princeton) - Fogarty's anger stems from the fact that Melnick would have been signed to an NLI at any school outside of an IVY last fall. Many coaches have stated to doing away with the gentlemen's agreement on verbals (which I think is a poor decision and I'd hate to see Rico as one of them) - but its a bit of a different situation here. A verbal yes, but not really a verbal from a timing standpoint...

This is a kid who committed to Princeton along with a bunch of HS/Prep teammates, is from the area and, if you follow the timeline, was pumped about, and all in on, attending Princeton.

Late last week word came out that he was going to Harvard (no idea if that was legit or speculation) - so I'm hoping THEY were the pursuing coaching staff and for whatever reason THEY/Melnick decided he would NOT attend Harvard as a result of how that commitment came about. Obviously there was no going back at Princeton, so he falls in Miami's lap along with his current line-mate...

I don't know what happened, but that's what I hope happened. Otherwise, i'd be disappointed...


i agree to a certain extent. I think the coach really blew it with his response and the recruit poorly handled how he communicated his decision, though I believe he had every right to do so. He committed early coming out of nearby Delbarton and being from NJ. i am wondering if he saw his stock rise while at Youngstown, played with some of the other Miami commits there and then wanted to go to a better hockey program. who could blame him, but it should have been communicated differently. It's interesting timing as most Ivy athletes go through early decision the fall before they are to enter, so I am guessing he did not do that this past December.

I faintly recall that when Marc Hagel came to Miami for the one year, after having graduated from Princeton, that the Princeton coaches had encouraged him to come to the 'Hawks (over other programs). A different situation from a new recruit, but it suggested to me there were good relations between the coaching staffs. I hope the Princeton coaches were referring to the Harvard coaching staff as you suggest as a possibility.

Bonk - he was a '15 commit for Princeton, but will he come in '15 or '16 for Miami?


I'm guessing this fall.

Never seen this kid play, but with a stat line of 14-48-62 he almost has to be a center, and Miami will be painfully short at center (I know Roslovic is one, I have no idea on the other incoming forwards except Siroky, who is a wing).

He also turns 20 this July, so while he could play an overage year in Youngstown, it doesn't look like he has much more to prove in the USHL.
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